One of the most discussed episodes in the Homeric poem, the embassy to Achilles in Book 9 offers an opportunity to reflect on themes such as delivering a personal apology, offering gifts as compensation for previous actions and failing to provide leadership in times of crisis. Write a few comments on any of these topics -- support your claims through textual evidence.
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The fact that Agamemnon sends an embassy to deliver his apology to Achilles strongly suggests that even when Agamemnon is in dire need for Achilles help, he's still too proud and maybe even arrogant to deliver the apology himself.
ReplyDeleteAlso on Book IX line 143, Agamemnon says "But since I was blinded, lost in my own inhuman rage" tells us that because of his pride he still can't take full responsibility for his mistakes, he tries to put the blame elsewhere, in this case his "inhuman rage".
Agamemnon also says starting on line 188 "I would extend to him if he will end his anger, let him submit to me! ... Let him bow down to me! I am the greater king, I am the elder-born, I claim-the greater man." further proves that Agamemnon still believes that he may have not been wrong all along and the issue is still Achilles' fault.
I realy like book 9 because it shows the real Achilleus . I say this because when Agamemnon offers Achilleus all these gifts only to return back to war, Achilles disagree immediately. This part shows how much pride he has. It shows that he wont give in just because of some prizes. He will hold the anger that he has towards Achilleus no matter what. This shows a really strong side of him
ReplyDeleteDesperate times, call for desperate measures. Agamemnon knew that the war was over, his army was losing and the only way to beat Troy was if Achilles joined them in combat. He admits, insulting Achilles was a wrong move but wants to set things "right". He says "I'll give a priceless ransom paid for friendship." Gifts like women, horses, and gold. This message was sent to Achilles, but being the stubborn person he is, denied. "I hate that man like the Gates of Death," so there was no way that he was going to help Agamemnon. So, offering gifts for an exchange for a friendship was not enough. Achilles believed that there was no point in fighting, it was only going to end up in death. "The same honor waits for the coward and the brave." I thought is was surprising what Agamemnon was willing to do in times of need.
ReplyDeleteI feel that Agamemnon does not offer an apology with gifts to Achilles to attempt to clear the tension between him and Achilles. Agamemnon offers this truce as a way to show his power as the King of the Acheans. This is his way of flexing his might, he states " All this (the gifts of wives, gold and the reaping of treasures if they defeat Troy) I would extend to him if he will end his anger. Let him submit to me! ... Let him bow down to me! I am the greater king, I am the elder-born, I claim - the greater man." He is not simply offering gifts to try to get Achilles back to help defeat the Trojans, he wants to show that he is the bigger man and willing to let his anger go for the Achean cause. He is depicting Achilles as petty and inferior for holding a grudge when there is a bigger issue at hand. He is also doing all this to try to protect his image in front of his followers. None of them agreed with his action of taking Briseis from Achilles and he feels foolish for doing so. (i.e. when Nestor said, "infuriated Achilles ... not with any applause from us, far from it").
ReplyDeleteAs for Achilles, I do not feel he is wrong for not accepting these terms. I feel that he is courageous (even though he may be a tad spiteful) for standing up to Agamemnon and refusing to fight for a cause that he doesn't believe in. Even though Pheonix's argument was strong, I believe Achilles is right. He states that he will not appease Agamemnon "just to serve his pleasure". I feel that it is not simply because Achille's pride was upset by Agamemnon. I believe that Achille's refuses to honor a man who he believes is not a moral man. It's not about Briseis, but about the reasoning of Agamemnon for fighting the Trojans that Achille's does not agree with. Even though he is stubborn, I feel that a man who simply fights for the gifts he may reap is not honorable. Therefore, I believe Achilles is right in denying Agamemnon the satisfaction of using Achille's as a pawn in his war.
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ReplyDeleteAs we have discussed in class, the "rage" and "anger" of certain characters, play a significant role in the Illiad. Rage and anger overcome these characters, and they become god-like, and their alter ego manifests because they, in a sense, do not have control of their mind. (it is lost with rage). I found that similarly, this idea of not being able to control ones self due to an external force is also present in Book 9, in the form of drunkenness. Twice in Book 9 there are "feasts," in which undoubtedly there were wine and other alcoholic beverages being consumed. ("Food and drink" pg. 149). However, despite the attempts made by the various messengers to convince Achilleus to rejoin the war and fight, Achilleus refused to comply. Similar to the beginning of the Illiad when other characters were overtaken by an external entity (rage), except Achilleus, so too here in Book 9, where despite the messengers being overtaken by an external force (alcohol/being drunk), Achilleus was once again able to contain himself and stick with his original morals and beliefs, despite these pressure put on him. I think this once again illustrates the strong willed character that is Achilleus, in contrast to his weak and indulgent counterparts
ReplyDeleteI have to say what shocked me the most about Agamemnon's very long-winded offering was where he stated he had not slept with Breseis. What a poor preserver of his manhood he is! And quite honestly, it made him look even worse in the sense that he took her not because he has "male needs" (which in no way justifies him anyway) but just to be spiteful. To me, Agamemnon represents the spoiled child. He wants what he wants and doesn't stop to think of the consequences. He is also quite the coward; Although he seems to be owning up to his mistakes, he's really pawning off the blame to the Gods and how the "blinded him with madness."
ReplyDeleteAchilles knows he's a buffoon, which is why at the beginning of the book, he tells Agamemnon he's not fit to lead his men. And I agree, he's a failure as a man, as a warrior and as a leader. A true leader would do what's best for his people and for the cause (war). And an honorable man would deliver an apology in person.
I also found the offerings very interesting; they were all gifts that would boost status in society: gold, women, his daughter making him official royalty. But as we discussed in class, this society runs on aristeia, and Achilles doesn't need these gifts from Agamenon to establish his aristeia. His reputation precedes him, and that is all he needs.
Agamemnon, realizing that Achilles was well equipped to defeat him, decided the best alternative would be to end the war. But, how would he end the war without looking like a coward to his people? Agamemnon devised what he thought was the perfect plan, winning over Achilles’ peace with luxury. He never intended on offering an apology, he was a very arrogant and deceitful individual who thought he could have his way no matter the cost. The quotation “All this I would extend to him if he will end his anger. Let him submit to me! Only the god of death is so relentless, Death submits to no one. So mortals hate him most of all the Gods. Let him bow down to me! I am the greater king, I am the elder-born, I claim-the greater man.” Showed that he thought he knew Achilles heart and what he was capable of. But I’m so happy, Achilles said no no no I will not accept any of his gifts. “Will Agamemnon win me over? Not for all the world”. “I hate that man like the gates of death who says one thing but hides another in his heart”. He took away Achilles’ wife, the love of his life and after all of the fighting decides he wants to return her, claiming that he never slept with her. Achilles’ response: “well let him bed her now – enjoy her to the hilt! And ask for Agamemnon offering his own daughter to Achilles is shameless on his part and just goes to show that he would do anything for his own benefit.
ReplyDeleteHomer: line 190, 375 and line 405
I believe that when a person sends someone else to apologize or sends gifts to regain the trust or friendship of another person, could mean several things like fear, embarrassment, or even being fake. Maybe could mean true honesty, but one thing that will mean for sure is that this person for some reason doesn’t want to be direct and straight forward.
ReplyDeleteFor common people like us sending someone else may mean that we are embarrassed and don’t have the courage to stand in front of the other person and apologize. It also could mean that our guilt is so big that we believe that we don’t even have a chance for our apology to be accepted. Also, it could mean that we are “sensing the field” in preparation to our next move –taking a shot at talking directly-.
In our story we are not talking about common people, we are talking about kings and heroes and we deal with a combination of personality and politics. King Agamemnon being a king, didn’t want to apologize directly to a soldier because of his status as a king, but he knew he needed Achilles to win the war. His pride was pulling towards one side but his interests as a politician pulled to the opposite side. I think his political agenda made him, in a manipulative action to appeal towards Achilles feelings, use gifts “ I’ll give a priceless ransom pay for friendship” (page 150, ln 144) and third parties (Achilles friends) to intercede for him “try hard now, bring him round -invencible Achilles!” (pg 152, ln 216) . I particularly don’t see it as a lack of leadership, in fact leaders don’t manage themselves with “emotional decisions” that last only moments, rather they should act in favor of a common benefit leaving aside personal momentary emotions. In my point of view I see that king Agamemnon desire for conquest while being needy, made him act very manipulative, fake, but yet smart to achieve his goal.
Too bad that the final goal was a personal desire and not a common benefit.
Achilles gives a sense of courtesy when he rejects each of his friends' offer to rejoin the war.
ReplyDelete"Royal son of Laertes, Odysseus, great tactician" or when he speaks to his mentor, "Phoenix, old father, bred and loved by the gods". The gifts of compensation that Agamemnon offers does not quell Achilles' anger because the shame he has done him is so great.
I agree with everyone on this blog no one seems to differ in the idea that Agamemnon just wants to use Achilles. Agamemnon sees that the only way they are going to win this war against the Trojans is to have Achilles with them. Agamemnon to me is a coward and lacks King traits. Agamemnon tohught he was going to win Achilles over by sending him over gifts and people to persuade him, but you have to remember Achilles is a man that has pride, and a man with pride stand by their word and thats exactlty what Achilles does. Even with Odyessus and Ajax trying to convince him Achilles does not budge. It will be interesting to see why Achilles decides to fight Hector from Troy.
ReplyDeleteAgamemnon knows that he made a mistake by dishonoring Achilles as he admits it himself “Mad, Blind I was! Not even I would deny it. Why look, that man is worth an entire army” (page 150, line 138-140). He finally realizes how precious is Achilles and what important rule he plays in the war. As the king of Achaeans, of course, he does not want to lose his vanity which is why he chooses to send three of his ambassadors (Odysseus, Ajax, and Phoenix) that are very close to Achilles to convince him of rejoining the Achaean’s Army. Although, just to prove that he is sorry and he really wants to offer an apology to Achilles, he offers a list of gifts under the condition that Achilles comes back to the war. This is obvious to me that Agamemnon is a king that would never appear in the battle field and fight with pride. However, he’s a great Politian of his time. He’s playing a political game by offering gifts and using close friends of Achilles as a bridge to approach and win him back. Achilles appeared to be well- aware of Agamemnon’s political game. He considers Agamemnon as a hypocrite by stating “I hate that man like the very Gate of Death who says one thing but hides another in his heart” (Page 155, line379). Therefore, he refuses to accept the gifts and return to Achaean’s army by saying “Will Agamemnon win me over? Not for all the world, I sear it___ or will the rest of the Achaeans” (page 155, line 381).
ReplyDeleteAchille's rage is still very apparent in book 9. The anger that he feels for Agamemnon blocks him from going back to war with the Achaeans even though his closest friends come to convince him. Although Achilles has a reason to be angry, I feel that his selfish reasoning keeps him from providing leadership to his people during this time. He clearly knows that the Greeks are suffering under the Trojans at their own ships but he refuses to help them out of his hatred for Agamemnon. Ajax tells him straight up taht "any man will accept the blood price paid for a brother, murdered, a child done to death" even if he has to "curb his pride" and "vengeful spirit." he claims how ridiculous it is that Achilles is letting this rage take over him all for "a girl." the greeks depend on Achilles for strength and courage in their battles and the power he has on the people mentally as they fight can keep the greeks goin. However, the pleas of so many around him and his closest friends do not seem to affect Achilles because his own self interest directs his actions. Even Agamemnon has shown him a sign of apology, acknowledging his mistake, but Achilles remains stubborn. Although Agamemnon was also taken over by rage and puts his interests first, in book 9, he admits and realizes that he was "blind." Even though he refuses to submit and apologize to Achilles wholly, he demonstrates a willingness to become friends with him again for the benefit of his warriors. He listens to Nestor's advice to reconcile his realationship with Achilles which shows a better side of him as a king. He must remain in his power, but he knows when to step down a little.
ReplyDeleteAchilles has turned an argument over pride into a decision that will later kill his close friend, Patroclus which will fill him with grief and regret. If Achilles was a true leader, he would put the interests of his people and his friends before his own. The fact that he remains so stubborn, even as Patroclus goes off in Achilles' armor, shows how careless he's being towards his own friends and not thinking about the consequences of his detrimental actions.
Well it is clear that Agamemnon was not a friend to Achilles what so ever. I think that Agamemnon's indirect appology,“ I’ll give a priceless ransom pay for friendship,” was not smart strategy for appology. He could come to Achilles begging for pardon, it was worth because Achilles was one of the best mercenary and only through him Agamemnon could declare victory. Because Agamemnon was arrogant and stubborn, he tried to buy Achilles's friendship.
ReplyDeleteSome individuals argue that Achilles was covered with rage because of "a girl" and did not accept Agamemnon's appology, hence, did not support the Greeks. Well, Achilles was not a killing machine so that Agamemnon could bribe him. Achilles had aristeia and pride. He wanted to recover from his wound. Agamemnon took his girl by disgracing Achilles's aresteia. It was Agamemnon's responsibility to think about the safety of his soldiers. Agamemnon, by himself had to come to Achilles, bent on his nees, ask for appology, and return the girl. Therefore, I think, Achilles did the right decision not accepting Agamemnon's appology and ransom because he did not wanted his aresteia to be disgraced or disrespected by Agamemnon again. Achilles did not betray or left the Greek soldiers to die there. It was all about aresteia, not money.
i agree with every post because its obvious that Agamemnon the king tries to persuade Achilles in the most confrontational way possible. What he was asking from Achilles was something huge and something that Achilles had close to his heart and was what this story was about basically( war). i feel that Agamemnon is selfish and not fit for a king! The way he presented his ideas and wants to Achilles was immature and embarrassing on his part. I get the feeling that he somewhat new Achilles answer but thought he would try anyway because he new how strong Achilles was and is. It was his way of "trying" and being cautious of his pride. I also feel like someone in power would be confident enough to approach this situation with poise and desire but to offer something that is nothing to him was nothing that Achilles wanted or appreciated. Achilles is a smart worrier in not saying yes to material possessions, and he knows it! Agamemnon knew that Achilles would succeed so he was scared and i feel that Achilles knew and felt that in how persistent he was offering anything and everything to him. Achilles knew what he was doing and knew how painful he was feeling and that motivated him more to fight and get revenge. he loved patroclus and knew he had to concur on his behalf.
ReplyDeleteI think this question is pretty contradictory, but still there are a lot of facts those go against Agamemnon.He was so proud that he didn't even apologized Achilles in a proper way because the mistake he had made was great and the way he was offering ransom to Achilles was not a proper way to apologize because Achilles himself was a great warrior and he deserved more.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand Agamemnon was a king, so he cant really just go up to Achilles and apologize because he is a king.The way Agamemnon sends Ajar, Phonix and Odysseus to Achilles didn't helped but there conversation had important significant. Like as Agamemnon says, "I am the elder-born, I claim-the greater man", it shows that he still have a lot of pride in himself and he is just not willing to give up whereas his army is in great trouble.
"Delivering a personal apology" cannot be done by sending a messenger, and Agamemnon was a coward for using Odysseus, to repeat his offer to Achilles. In lines 454-460 we can see how Achilles is outraged: "Shameless, inveterate-armored in shamelessness! Dog that he is, he'd never dare to look me straight in the eyes again. No, I'll never set heads together with that man-no planning in common, no taking common action. He cheated me, did me damage, wrong! But never again, he'll never rob me blind with his twisting words again!Once is enough for him. Die and be damned for all i care!". Agamemnon picked the wrong guy to be playing funny games with. Now he wants to offer gifts as compensation to a man who wants nothing more than to win the fight. Agamemnon is a careless leader, and believes that he can buy his ways out. Too bad that he ran into an individual that has dignity and pride. You go Achilles!
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